borntohula

that makes absoultely no sense at all. so if i want a led zeppelin shirt, i'm a poser unless i find a "vintage" one? i'm still a fan.... a poser though? just because my shirt would be new? nuts, i should've got my mom to buy me one while i was in the womb, so i could show how much of a real fan i am. fuck that. these are all things that no one should care about. i've never understood why it's important to separate "real" fans from the "fake" ones. just listen to the music and enjoy it. who cares what anyone else does or says.

four episodes? thats intense!

well i was just expressing the point of view that taking away EVERYTHING does not help them turn into better people. the idea that you seem to be pushing is solely punitive. when does the punishment end in your ideal corrections program? it doesn't. who does that help? no one. it's a nice waste of money. i think they deserve to be treated like human beings.

this is ridiculous and it makes me sad that people like this exist: http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1231684&page=1

because you're forgetting that they're members of the society as well. they aren't outcasts, they arent different than you or i. that's what im trying to explain. they've committed crimes, but as soon as they walk through those prison walls, you've got to move on. that is the punishment. they're paying for their actions while being in those walls, but theyre still apart of our society. when they become an inmate, everything is taken from them. their job, family, and way of life. i think the removal of the convicted from those three things is punishment enough. to dehumanize them further has no punitive purpose!! sure, they are sent to prison because they "can't be trusted as a member of society" but if the goal of incarceration is to fix that problem, to correct it, then i think we can start to trust them once they go through this process. the assumption that inmates don't take voting seriously when given the option, is a dangerous one, and i'd like you to reconsider. doesn't the ability to vote spark one's interest in politics? the average canadian gets most of his or her political news from the television and the newspaper. mediums that the average inmate has access to as well. they have the same access to information as you or i might. whether they actually vote or not is up to them, which is the same situation that we non-incarcerated individuals face. you can't force people to vote and saying that they're more apathetic than we are is just another shoddy attempt to distance "us" from "them". they are equal to us, that's what makes this democratic.

im willing to guess that some of you wont want to waste your money on the underworld soundtrack (because it blows), but that shouldn't stop you from hearing the puscifer track on it. everyone needs their maynard fix. http://s54.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=233DMWU...0Q0XKIAHO4SFANQ the song is called "the undertaker".

alright, generalization forgiven. that's not really what i'm saying though. that's a load of garbage and you know it. here's a generalization i can't just gloss over. just because i'm not pushing for capital punishment and torture does not mean that i dont believe in corrections. i understand that people must learn from their mistakes. these mistakes must be pointed out to them and corrected in order to maintain a certain quality of life. i have no qualms about this, nor have i stated otherwise. labelling me liberal is boring rhetoric and has nothing to do with this discussion. also, you seem to neglect actually making any sort of counter arguement against my last post. you're just restating what you've said. so one last time: please, could you explain to me how inmates being involved in the electoral process adversely affects our communities? it strengthens the inmates ties to a world that they would otherwise be considerred outcast. is that what you would prefer? is this the goal of your punitive ideals? remove these wrongdoers from society entirely and leave them to rot in some cell? out of sight out of mind? when does your punishment end and when does the rehabilitation begin? the problem with your idea is that its being performed all over canada. people are thrown in jail and are given nothing to do but gain closer ties to the criminal world. no jobs are offerred, no skills are taught, and no appreciation is learned for the society in which we live. then, when they're let out, they've got nothing to live for. no house, no job, no education. what else do they have to turn to but more crime? no wonder the recidivism rate is on the rise!!! call me a liberal, call me a hippy, but i think these members of society are worth more to us acting positively within our communities. in the institutions i mentionned earlier (fenbrook, beaver creek), where more proactive approaches are being taken, inmates are being taught ways of life, and will be able to successfully meet the demands of the world outside. being removed of their citizenship has no rehabilitative qualities to it whatsoever. nor does it teach them a lesson. it just reinforces the idea that these people do not fit within our society and cannot actively participate within it. they have no voice. as a result, your views only end up worsening the situation, not helping. there is nothing to be learned from that experience.

firstly, removing criminals from society puts them at a disadvantage. just because they committed a crime should not mean that suddenly, these people do not matter. defining them as inhuman is where you start to encounter problems. some sociologists even argue that labelling is the cause of many instances of crime in the first place. essentially what you people are saying is that we live in a democratic society but only some of us are allowed to vote. that's not a democracy, folks. dan, you dont think paul berdardo needs the treatment he's getting? that money would be better off spent somewhere else? just kill him and be done with it? who does that help? its incredibly hypocritical to kill the killer, what does that accomplish? its obviously not acting as a very good deterrant. just look at the united states! where's the justification? why punish people for killing in the first place if the government can play god and do the same thing? how about, instead of killing them, we... i dont know... try to understand their behavior in order to allow for more prevenative methods to be created to stop this behaviour from happening??? that sounds like a decent idea. the death penalty is nonsense. thats enough on paul bernardo... the exception should not dictate the rule. end of story. last year i was fortunate enough to visit both fenbrook (medium security) and beaver creak (minimum) institutions (not as an offender, through university, in my crime and punishment class). beaver creek, despite what you think you know about prisons, is not a prison at all. its several houses and buildings on a plot of land. no gates. anywhere. the inmates are allowed to roam freely, but most have either vocational training, school, or an actual job to attend to during the day. at night, they have a curfew and abide by it. they get paid at the jobs they have and have to buy their own groceries. this way they are encouraged to work with their roomates in order to develop interpersonal skills as well as to be able to budget for the week. they have a lot more freedom than you think. how different are they from you or i? if you're in a minimum security prison, it means that you are going to be a part of society in a very short period of time or are of no danger to the world outside. that's federally. the majority of provincial sentences average somewhere around 60 days!! going to jail for two months suddenly makes someone exempt from their role in a democracy? so what??? thats like saying because students are concerned with tuition, they're going to be more likely to vote for the green party... you vote on what affects you! different issues affect different people. explain how their involvement in the electoral process adversely affects our communities? it's a positive change!! "Offenders should be encouraged to accept more responsibility for their future roles in the community. Voting promotes a sense of belonging and establishes a link between the offender and the community. Giving inmates the right to vote also demonstrates that as a society, we recognize that incarcerated individuals maintain responsibility during incarceration and after their release. Furthermore, voting privileges allow inmates to view themselves as participating members of society and not outcasts from it. After all, people are not sentenced to lack of citizenship." http://www.johnhoward.ab.ca/ most canadian inmates come from impoverished, minority groups, a life where prison is a reality and they are often led to it. it'd be discrimination to say that these people should not have a voice in the development and changes to be brought about in our counry. like i mentionned earlier, maybe our efforts should be more focussed on crime prevention, which includes fixing poverty stricken areas of the country.

wrong....

what if i disagree with voting? the whole process of only having 4 parties to choose from in my community is no real choice at all. what do i do then? how do i show the government i dislike a certain law? and even if i didnt disagree with voting, the idea that decisions solely get made by voting is the most apathetic thing ive ever heard. things dont change with your vote. as soon as you mark an "x" on that ballot, you officially leave your viewpoints up to a lottery. people who assume that as soon as they vote they've fufilled their right as a citizen witnin a democracy is nuts. people need to get involved with their communities in order to creat and stimulate change. im going on a bit of a tangent here. anyway, my main point here is that sure, people break laws and are sent to institutions. but people are sent to prison AS punishment, not FOR punishment. once at a facility, i believe its the country's responsibilty to help rehabilitate these individuals and make them functioning members of society once again. the assumption that all inmates are going to somehow band together and vote for some party which is more lax on corrections is ridiculous. even if that happened, give me an example of a prison that has more people inside it than outside in the neighborring city? if you're all for the removal of all their rights, then what about their right to rehabilitation in the first place? that right still exists within an institution. they also have a right to a safe environment, which is meant to be upheld by guards. do you want these rights revoked as well? being in a prison does not mean you suddenly have no rights, thats a bit outrageous. they're human beings as well, and will be eventually released... so i think they should have a say in their future. they also have family and friends that live in this country as well. keep in mind, most of canada's correctional institutions are primarily made up of people who commit property crimes (http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/legal20a.htm?sdi=prison). they aren't all just murderous bastards like the TV might tell you.

the polls are stupid and vary as much as the sources who provide them.

well im not thinking of canadian laws in specific... it was just a theoretical question meant to show you that it all just relies on one's perspective. just becaue you live in this country doesnt mean that you have to respect its laws. like saturnine pointed out, those with power don't have to face any of the consequences of their abuse of power, and arguably have more of an impact upon votes than the normal middle class gangster such as you or myself.

what if those laws are unjust? what if i break a law that is completely unreasonable and infringes upon human rights?

why does it matter if they went to prison during a conservative government or a liberal one? regardless of your sentence, who gets voted in ultimately affects the lifestyle of inmates, even though their existence is reduced to a small room. one party would be for privatizing prisons, whereas other parties do not share the same ideas toward corrections. these sorts of decisions have huge effects on the rehabilitative capabilities of the institutions, the inmates themselves, as well as their overall success rate.

don't you think you should explain yourself a bit more? i mean, in what sort of context are we talking about here? edit: what sort of relevance does the question even have? i mean, to me it just comes down to semantics, which is a bit silly. does it even matter if one is the other? you have to pose more than just a question.

i think you're missing the point of what a institution like that is supposed to accomplish. prisons arent meant to remove people from society and then dump them back in when their time is up. what do these individuals learn from that? they're supposed to be rehabilitated within that time frame. unfortunately, not all institutions abide by that cause, but i believe that giving them their right to vote ensures that they have a choice in their future, because most of them aren't going to be incarcerated forever.

as much as this isnt a game, i cant compell myself to stop playing it. right now, my thing is all about making pipes, and lighting everything on fire.

can you explain what it is that you like about them? i dont mean to call you out, im just trying to understand. also, thank you both for replying in this thread.

this has to be the best music video ever. it's fuckin deep. i especially enjoyed the magic realism, where the different "hoffs" were together in the same shot. i hope he knows those angel girls on a purely platonic level, or else mr. hoff is in some deep doo doo. see for yourselves!

everyone did a nice job. here's mine: http://mm.dfilm.com/mm2s/mm_route.php?id=2779714

hooray for having the same pair of shoes. im trying to stockpile them now because im having trouble finding them.

no i can't think of any, but man am i frustrated by people's infatuation with chuck norris.

um i dont understand what's going on? who calls this a game?

i hated them when i first heard the "dual commentary", but then when i figurred out how to listen to one at a time, i loved them again.

very cool.